Tuesday, July 19, 2016

Looping the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Into Our Judicial System



Last year, the United States Supreme Court installed a hearing loop system that will help those who wear hearing aids or cochlear implants hear better in the nation’s highest court. The new induction listening system, which is in addition to the High Court’s existing FM and infra-red listening devices, transmits sound through an electromagnetic signal that can be picked up by the telecoil of a hearing aid or cochlear implant.[1]
 
The new system is intended for use by court visitors and by attorneys appearing before the court. The Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association (DHHBA) recently had thirteen members of their organization sworn in and admitted to the Bar of the United States Supreme Court. All members are Deaf or Hard of Hearing attorneys. The Supreme Court provides sign language interpreters and real-time captioning services (also known as Communication Access Realtime Translation, or CART) to DHHBA participants.[2] The hearing loop makes this experience more meaningful for those attorneys with hearing aids and cochlear implants.

There are three types of technology used for assistive listening:  RF (radio frequency), IR (infrared) and IL (induction loop).  All of these technologies produce much of the same result:  the audio source transmitted wirelessly to a personal receiver or directly to a compatible hearing-aid.

In an RF system, the signal is transmitted over radio frequencies (specifically the FCC mandated 72 and 216 MHz bands) to a personal receiver. The advantage of RF technology is that there are no “line-of-site” issues and the technology can cover a wide area indoors or outdoors. 

An IR system uses infrared light to transmit audio. The advantage of IR technology is that the system is secure—the audio signal will never leave the room. The challenge is a listener should be within line-of-site of the emitter/radiators. Also, the shape of the room, the coverage, and line-of-site issues usually require more thought and consideration during the design stage.

In an Induction Loop system, an integral wire is installed around the room in a variety of ways creating an induction field that can be picked up by hearing aids with a tele-coil, which more than 60 percent of hearing aids today and 100% of cochlear implants have. Many venues and users alike enjoy this type of an assistive listening system because the users’ disability is invisible as they simply use their hearing aids to receive the audio signal. There would be no need to ask for a receiver.

It is clear that the United States Supreme Court is committed to making their courts accessible to all Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals regardless if they are members of the legal profession or are there to observe court proceedings. They are leading the way in opening up the courts to those with a hearing loss.

Making our courts accessible across the United States is still an ongoing challenge.  We have come a long way from the days when it was permissible for a person to be denied service or barred from a courthouse because they had a disability. However, many courtrooms still do not have hearing loops or other devices installed.

In 1990, the landmark Americans with Disabilities Act was passed by congress. It was the nation's first comprehensive civil rights law addressing the needs of people with disabilities, prohibiting discrimination in employment, public services, public accommodations, and telecommunications. There are new rules that the US Department of Justice released in 2010 in regards to ADA compliance and assistive listening.  These new updated rules apply to all new construction and alterations since March 15, 2012 and are mandatory by law.  The number of receivers and number of hearing aid compatible receivers depends on the total occupancy of the venue. [3]

Deaf and Hard of Hearing Individuals need access to court ordered services because there has been a “pattern of unconstitutional treatment in the administration of justice in our nation’s history towards individuals with a hearing loss.”[4] When Congress was considering passing the Americans With Disabilities Act of 1990 (ADA), they discovered that that many individuals, in many states across the country, were being excluded from courthouses and court proceedings by reason of their disabilities.”[5] A task force established by Congress “heard numerous examples of the exclusion of persons with disabilities from state judicial services and programs, including the exclusion of persons with visual impairments and hearing impairments from jury service [and] failure of state and local governments to provide interpretive services for the hearing impaired.”[6]

Although many courts do a fine job in providing Deaf members of the community with American Sign Language (ASL) interpreters, not all individuals with a hearing loss use ASL. There are many individuals who rely on technologies such as hearing aids and cochlear implants, assistive listening devices such as hearing loops, or real-time captioning (CART). Without the necessary technology in our courtrooms, meaningful and crucial information is missed which may lead to severe and unjustified consequences to the administration of justice.

I encourage our judicial system to follow the example of the United States Supreme Court by making our courtrooms accessible to people with a hearing loss by installing hearing loops and other technologies in all of our courtrooms so that people with hearing loss have equal access to our courts.

[1]"Supreme Court Gets a Hearing Loop| David H. Kirkwood | Hearinghealthmatters.org/hearingnewswatch/." Hearing News Watch. 2014. Web. 09 Apr. 2016.

[2] Anat Mytal, "DHHBA Members to Be Sworn into United States Supreme Court Bar." Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association. 06 Apr. 2016. Web. 09 Apr. 2016.

[3] "2010 ADA Standards for Accessible Design." Hearing Chattanooga. Web. 9 Apr. 2016. <http://www.hearingchattanooga.org/news_items/ADA Standards 219 706ALDs .pdf>.

[4] Tennessee v. Lane, 541 U.S. 509, 524-525 (2004).

[5] Id. at 527.

[6] Id.

Tuesday, March 8, 2016

How To Get Involved In Advocating For People With Disabilities

People often ask me how they can get more involved in advocating on behalf of people with disabilities. Being an advocate is great and it is actually really easy to do.  

There are several organizations that people can reach out to and become active with. I have listed some of them below. I have included two organizations that fights for the rights of Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals. 

1. American Association of People with Disabilities
4. National Disability Rights Network
5. TASH
6. National Association of the Deaf (NAD)
7. Hearing Loss Association of America

There are other ways to make your voice heard. You can contact your state and local elected representative and talk to them about how they can improve the lives of people with disabilities. You can also contact your elected representative in the Senate and in the House in Washington D.C. as well. You can also reach out to the President too. I suggest using this website for help in contacting elected officials at the local, state and federal level. 

But there are also other avenues that people can pursue in advocating on behalf of people with disabilities.

People can reach out to the Bipartisan Disability Caucus so that you can suggest your concerns and share ideas with them. This contains a list of elected officials in Washington D.C. who have a strong interest in helping people with disabilities. You can also contact the House Committee on the Judiciary, Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice as well. Finally, you can also reach out to the National Council on Disability (NCD).

There are also government agencies that specialize in helping people with disabilities. Below are some websites for you to use such as disability.gov and ada.gov.

There are also legal organizations such as Disability Rights Legal Center (DRLC), Disability Rights Advocate (DRA), and the Disability Rights Law Clinic. People should also be aware that the American Bar Association has a Commission on Disability Rights. There is also the Disability Rights Bar Association (DRBA). For people who are Deaf and Hard of Hearing, there is the Deaf and Hard of Hearing Bar Association (DHHBA).

Wednesday, March 2, 2016

HB304 Is Bad Law That Needs To Be Opposed Immediately

Right now, the Utah Legislature is considering House Bill 304 (HB304) which allows for the online sale of hearing aids by a licensed optometrist or pharmacist with the use of an online hearing test or appropriate questionnaire.

You read that right. An audiologist or hearing instrument specialist is not mentioned in the bill anywhere.

As someone who is an advocate for the rights of Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals in the state of Utah who also has a hearing loss that requires me to wear hearing aids everyday, I have grave concerns about this bill. 

While the idea of expanding access to hearing aids to more individuals is a worthy endeavor, allowing hearing aids to be sold online by someone who is not a licensed audiologist will not help clients who need hearing aids.

The reason why this bill is a bad idea is because getting hearing aids is not an easy process. You need to take a hearing test by a licensed audiologist to determine what kind of hearing loss you have. Not all hearing loss is the same and even where two people have the same kind of hearing loss, they still hear things differently. It is important that a client receive counseling by an audiologist about their hearing loss and discuss what kind of hearing aids can meet their needs.

There are many things that can be purchased online such as books, music, furniture and cars. However, hearing aids shouldn't be allowed to be sold online by non-audiologists because this bill has the potential to harm consumers who won't be getting the care they need which leads to further problems for them down the road.

Here are eight reasons why HB304 is bad law:
1) Nowhere in HB 304 is an audiologist or hearing instrument specialist mentioned. It is inappropriate and not within the scope of practice for pharmacists and optometrists to dispense hearing aids. How would state licensing requirements be met?

2) It is not in the best interest of your consumers. It would deny them current consumer protection and quality of care guidelines.

3) The sale of hearing aids is governed by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. 21 CFR 801.420 and 801.421 set specific requirements related to conditions for sale, including those related to medical evaluation and referral. The inclusion of hearing aids in HB 304, and the imposition of the bill’s additional requirements on hearing aids exposes the bill to federal preemption

4) An online hearing test or questionnaire is not sufficient to properly evaluate the needs of a person with hearing loss. In 2012, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) handily rejected the use of an online hearing test.

5) The potential risks that result from the omission of a comprehensive hearing evaluation and treatment by a licensed hearing healthcare professional include failure to detect an underlying medical cause of the hearing loss, additional hearing loss as a result of improper fitting and/or programming of hearing aids, and ear trauma sustained as the result of improper fitting and/or insertion of ear molds or hearing aids.

6) Hearing aids and contact lenses are not the same. 15 U.S. Code Chapter 102 governs the availability, use and authority of the U.S. Federal Trade Commission to promulgate rules related to contact lens prescriptions and deliverability.

7) Minnesota Department of Health released a statement stressing the importance of seeing a hearing healthcare practitioner for hearing loss and advised that failure to do so “skirts state and federal legal protections and could result in harm.”

8) Hearing aid user success is directly tied to the adjustment, counseling, and other follow up services. These simply cannot exist through an online delivery model.
Please contact your Utah State House and Senate Representative to urge them to oppose this bill! We would also appreciate those of you who do not reside in Utah to express your concerns about this law.

Sunday, September 14, 2014

United States Supreme Court Installs Hearing Loops

The United States Supreme Court has recently put out a press release that they will be installing hearing loops in the nation's highest court in preparation for the upcoming Court Term: 
A new assistive listening system has been installed in the Courtroom to improve visitor services. The hearing loop system will be available for use when the Court’s Term begins in October. The new system transmits sound through an electromagnetic signal picked up by most hearing aids and cochlear implants without requiring additional equipment. Listening devices will be available for those who wish to use the hearing loop but do not wear hearing aids or have hearing aids that are not compatible with the loop technology. The Court will also continue to offer the FM and Infra-red listening devices made available to Courtroom visitors in the past.
hearing loop diagram The installation of the “induction loop” (also known as T-Loops or Hearing Loops) assistive listening system in the Courtroom is great news for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing community. Many people who are Deaf or Hard of Hearing do not communicate using ASL and use hearing aids or cochlear implants that include a telecoil (a small copper wire which boosts magnetic signals) to help them experience improved sound quality and clarity in venues such as churches, theaters and courthouses simply by switching on their telecoil. 

Kali Borkoski writing for SCOTUSblog explains that the induction loop "works by transmitting sound electromagnetically. An alternating current is run through a wire around the Courtroom, thus creating a magnetic field; when a visitor wearing a telecoil enters the magnetic field, the telecoil picks up the electromagnetic signal, which is processed by a chip in the hearing aid/implant/headset, and fed to the listener’s ear as sound."

The Court is striving to meet the diverse needs of the Deaf and Hard of Hearing community by providing communication access such as Assistive Listening Devices or Sign Language interpreters who wish to attend oral arguments at the Court. The Court may be sending a signal to other courts across the country to start installing induction loops into their court rooms because many courts offer other Assistive Listening Devices such as the FM and Infra-red listening devices. Some courts, typically smaller courts, don't offer any listening devices at all. The attempt to get courts in the United States to be compliance with the Americans With Disability Act (ADA) is still an ongoing project. As a result, the Court is setting an example for the rest of the judicial courts across the nation by installing the induction loops in the Court.

I am on the steering committee for the Loop Utah Movement here in Utah. In working with audiologists, businesses and Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals, our goal is to help state and local government agencies, and places of public accommodation be aware of Hearing Loops (also known as T-Loops or Induction Loops) that will enable them to meet their legal requirements of providing effective communication with Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals. 

While many courts in Utah offer Assistive Listening Devices such as the FM and Infra-red listening devices, none of them (as far I know) have installed induction loops in their courtrooms. Installing induction loops would be a great help witnesses, jurors, attorneys or just members of the public to hear what is going on in court here in Utah.  Even Judges who wear hearing aids will benefit from having induction loops in their courtrooms. Hearing loops provide the best all-round assistive listening solution. This opinion is shared by most knowledgeable installers and venue operators and he led to induction loop becoming the default solution in most countries.

While many courts here in Utah work hard to meet the needs of Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals, there is still a lot of work that needs to be done within the criminal justice system.  Hopefully, the Utah judicial system will follow the Court's example by installing hearing loops in courthouses in this state. 

Wednesday, March 5, 2014

Rasing Money For A Good Cause: Loop Utah Movement Fundraiser

I am on the steering committee for the Loop Utah Movement here in Utah. In working with audiologists, businesses and Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals, our goal is to help state and local government agencies, and places of public accommodation be aware of Hearing Loops (also known as T-Loops) that will enable them to meet their legal requirements of providing effective communication with Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals. 

As a result, Loop Utah is seeking donations so that we can continue our ongoing education on loops. By donating to our organization, it will enable us to purchase portable loops to demonstrate this technology, provide a loop to be used at various venues to try, handouts, provide resources and enable ongoing loop education. You can donate either by credit card on our www.looputah.org site or participate in our first Fundraiser Auction & Luncheon on May 2nd here in Utah. 

For more details, see the flyer below. 


Saturday, January 4, 2014

Cybercriminals Are Using Fake Court Notices To Infect Your Computer With Viruses


Cybercriminals are constantly trying to fool you into clicking on an attachment in a e-mail so that they can infect your computer with harmful and malicious viruses so that they can either access and take control of your computer, use your computer to comit more cybercrimes, to steal your personal and financial information or simply to spy on you.

In order to convince you to open up the attachment, they either tell you that you have won something and that you have to click on the attached file or tell you that something horrible has happened to you and you must open the file. Cybercriminals come up with all kinds of schemes in an attempt to get you to click on that infected file that has been attached to their e-mail.

The latest scheme they are using is to scare people into believing that they have been summoned to court. The goal is to trick people into opening the malicious attachment by claiming that they have been scheduled to appear in court. I myself have gotten this e-mail. This is what it says: 

Notice to Appear,
Hereby you are notified that you have been scheduled to appear for your hearing that
will take place in the court of San Francisco in January 8, 2014 at 09:00 am.

Please bring all documents and witnesses relating to this case with you to Court on your hearing date.
The copy of the court notice is attached to this letter.
Please, read it thoroughly.

Note: If you do not attend the hearing the judge may hear the case in your absence.

Yours truly,
Abigail Mason
Clerk to the Court.
If you get an e-mail like this, the best thing to do is either delete it or report this e-mail as spam to the company that provides your email account.  
The criminals who have hatched this scheme do not know how the American court system works in notifying someone that they must appear in court. The first red flag is the wording of the e-mail. No Judge or lawyer would ever write a court notice like this. The second red flag is that if a Judge or lawyer wants to you to show up for court, they will NEVER send you an e-mail. What they will do is hire either a police officer or a professional company that serves legal documents to your home or office and hand you a paper saying you must come to court. The final red flag is the attached file that comes with the fake court notice. The attachment has a program that ends with ".exe" which is a sign that it is a computer program that will infect your computer with a virus or some other malware. Sometimes the malicious virus comes as a zip file. Do not click on it. 
It is important to know that sometimes the name of the file may not end with ".exe." The name of the attachment may change, so be careful when opening email attachments. Click here for a list of email attachments you should never open, regardless of where they came from.
Always do a virus scan before opening up an attachment. If you have gotten this e-mail and have clicked on the attachment, immediately do a full scan of your computer using an antivirus software. If you don’t have antivirus software installed on your computer, please click here for a list of free antivirus software.

Wednesday, December 11, 2013

Fake Sign Language Interpreter At Nelson Mandela Memorial Demonstrates Why The ADA Sign Langugage Interpreting Requirements Are Necessary

Imagine you are a Deaf person living in South Africa and the world is mourning with your country over the loss of Nelson Mandela. You turn on your television to join millions around the world in paying respect to South Africa's first President. You become excited when you discover that there is a South African Sign Language Interpreter for you to watch. But there's one problem.

This South African Sign Language interpreter is making up signs. Now your heart sinks becuase you can't understand what is being said at the Nelson Mandela Memorial Ceremony because Sign Language interpreters are used to translate what is being spoken into sign language.  

Deaf people around the world are outraged at the fact that a man who held himself as a legitimate South African Sign Language Interpreter turned out to be a charlatan. He's a fake interpreter. For proof that this interpreter is making signs up, watch this YouTube clip to see a side by side comparison between a real interpreter and the imposter. Sadly, this kind of fake interpreting is part of South Africa's complex history with its Deaf citizens.

Paul Breckell, the Chief executive of the U.K.-based charity Action on Hearing Loss, explained how this fake interpreter harmed the South African Deaf community: 
"We are shocked by the quality of sign language interpretation at Nelson Mandela’s memorial -- if it could be called interpretation at all."

He added that "the limited number of signs, the amount of repetition, lack of facial expressions and huge gaps in translation meant that deaf or hard of hearing people across the world were completely excluded from one of the biggest events in recent history."
As a Deaf attorney who represents Deaf clients (and hearing clients too) on a wide variety of legal matters and is an advocate for the rights of Deaf and Hard of Hearing people in America, I can tell you that it is not always easy for a person with a hearing loss to get a qualified Sign Language Interpreter in the United States. 

That is why the Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) is so important in America for Deaf and Hard of Hearing individuals. The ADA has some provisions that helps to insure that the American Sign Language (ASL) interpreter is a legitimate interpreter who will actually interpret what is being said. The fake interpreter did not help Deaf South Africans from understanding the speakers at the Nelson Mandela memorial. Any Deaf or Hard of Hearing individual who relied on this fraudulent interpreter missed out on so much information and knowledge that was presented at the memorial. All the heartwarming stories and speeches were completely missed thanks to this imposter. 

Now imagine if you were a Deaf or Hard of Hearing individual in America. What if this interpreter was interpreting for you in court? Was with you in your visit with your doctor? Was with you as you were being questioned by the police either as a witness or a suspect of a crime? Was interpreting for you at your wedding? 

You would miss out on so much. That is why interpreters are so important to Deaf people. That is why Deaf people demand that an interpreter be competent in translating for them. However, having a sign language interpreter isn't just for the Deaf person. Its also for you. The interpreter is also there for you to help you understand what the Deaf person is telling you. An interpreter is there to help facilitate effective communication between both parties.

How does having an interpreter help hearing people? It allows for clear communication to occur between both parties which reduces frustration, confusion and misunderstanding that might occur. It reduces any civil or criminal liability that may arise if there is a dispute over what was communicated. It also helps the parties identify where the miscommunication or misunderstanding occurred. It also helps preserve confidentiality where important or private information is being shared, especially in medical or legal settings. Using a certified interpreter is the only way to avoid these and other unforeseen problems. All certified interpreters are bound by a Code of Professional Conduct

It is also good for business. There will be better communication between both parties in business transactions. A Deaf patient will be able to follow a doctor's medical advice which reduces medical complications and injuries. A Deaf person can receive the legal advice that an attorney provides which will keep his Deaf client in compliance with the law.

How The ADA Ensures that Sign Language Interpreters Are Competent

There are five sections to the ADA.  Title I covers employment. Title II applies to public entities such as state and local governments. Title III applies to places of public accommodations such as football stadiums, businesses and restaurants. Title IV covers Telecommunications. And Title V deals with miscellaneous items.  

One of the major goals of the ADA is to ensure that “effective communication” takes place between an employer and employee under Title I;  a citizen and a government official such as a police officer, fireman, a doctor working at a state run hospital, a city official, Judge, Mayor or federal employee working for the United States government under Title II; or between a individual and a business owner or employee such as a lawyer, a doctor working at a private hospital or clinic or having a face to face meeting with a business owner to discuss a complaint about a product or service at the business under Title III.

Both Title II and Title III of the ADA provide definitions of what a competent ASL interpreter is. The ADA calls a competent and legitimate ASL interpreter a "qualified interpreter." Under the ADA, a qualified interpreter “means an interpreter who, via a video remote interpreting (VRI) service or an on-site appearance, is able to interpret effectively, accurately, and impartially, both receptively and expressively, using any necessary specialized vocabulary. Qualified interpreters include, for example, sign language interpreters, oral transliterators, and cued-language transliterators.” See 28 C.F.R.§ 35.104 for Title II and 36.104 for Title III.

It is important to point out that the ADA doesn't require the ASL interpreter to be licensed and certified. It just requires them to be "qualified." However, some states have passed laws requiring that qualified interpreter must also be licensed and certified. For example, Utah passed a HB371 which amended Title 53A, Chapter 26a to now require interpreters to obtain obtain state certification as American Sign Language-trained interpreters and that anyone who interprets in the state of Utah without being certified is charged with a Class B Misdemeanor.  As a result of the passage of HB371, Utah Administrative Code Rule R746-510-2 , defines a "Certified Interpreter" to mean a "person who is certified as meeting the certification requirements" of  the "Interpreter Services for the Hearing Impaired Act."  I strongly encourage states to follow Utah in making it a state requirement that ASL interpreters should be required to be certified by a state licensing agency. 

The ADA also doesn't recognize (yet) Certified Deaf Interpreters (CDI). A CDI is "an individual who is deaf or hard of hearing and has been certified by the Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf as an interpreter.” (Professional Standards Committee. CDIs have “excellent general communication skills and general interpreter training, [and that] the CDI may also have specialized training and/or experience in use of gesture, mime, props, drawings and other tools to enhance communication. The CDI has an extensive knowledge and understanding of deafness, the deaf community, and/or deaf culture which combined with excellent communication skills, can bring added expertise into booth routine and uniquely difficult interpreting situations.” (They are also attuned to the finer nuances of ASL and non-verbal communication that a hearing interpreter might not have. However, a properly trained and certified CDI would easily met the ADA requirements for a qualified interpreter.

The best way to find a qualified (and certified)  ASL interpreter or CDI is to contact an interpreting agency in your state who can assist you in finding the right interpreter for you and your client. There is also the  Registry of Interpreters for the Deaf (RID which is can assist you in finding an good and competent ASL interpreter or CDI.

The ADA as well as many state anti-descrimination laws strictly forbid people from using friends and family members as an interpreter unless they can prove that it was either an emergency or by judicial decree. Attempting to use a client’s family member, friend or neighbor who claims to know ASL leads to a minefield of problems for you and your organization. They may be too emotionally or financially involved to provide a fair and accurate interpretation of what is being said between both parties. Furthermore, an unqualified interpreter will not have to abide by ethical constraints required of a qualified interpreter. Additionally, using an unqualified interpreter may destroy the privilege of confidential communication between an attorney and the client, doctor and the patient, clergy and the parishioner and therapist and client.  Finally, not using a qualified interpreter may expose you or the unqualified interpreter to liability.

Also Title II and Title III strictly forbids people, public entities and public accommodations from charging the client the cost of hiring an interpreter. Charging a Deaf client will most certainly put you in legal trouble and you might face the possibility of a lawsuit. The cost of providing an interpreter is part of the cost of doing business or providing a government service. Almost always, the cost of an interpret is less than profit you will make from that client in providing a product or service to the Deaf or Hard of Hearing individual. 
HB371 amends previous rules to penalize individuals who don't obtain state certification as American Sign Language-trained interpreters. Many have performed the duty without the correct certification, essentially bilking deaf individuals, said Dale Boam, a Utah Valley University professor of deaf studies, attorney and experienced ASL interpreter.
Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=24252184#QqoMcASRehCzClzO.99
HB371 amends previous rules to penalize individuals who don't obtain state certification as American Sign Language-trained interpreters. Many have performed the duty without the correct certification, essentially bilking deaf individuals, said Dale Boam, a Utah Valley University professor of deaf studies, attorney and experienced ASL interpreter.
Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=24252184#QqoMcASRehCzClzO.99
The fake Sign Language Interpreter at the Nelson Mandela memorial demonstrates why having a qualified and certified interpreter is necessary and why it a major part of the Americans with Disabilities Act. A person claims know sign language isn't enough. This guy was able to bluff his way into interpreting for many South African events until he was able to land the biggest interpreting job in history. As a result of his lies, he hurt the world wide Deaf Community who wanted to join in and celebrate Nelson Mandela's life.  
Don't just hire any interpreter. Get the right one. A qualified and certified one.